"We have observed homosexual behavior in prenatally stressed male rats after castration plus sex hormone treatment in adulthood, whereas prenatally non-stressed but later equally treated males displayed heterosexual behavior."
This is a really interesting article and very well-researched. Thanks for posting, earned a follow from me. I checked out some of your Twitter posts, too, especially on thyroid stuff and it's all really good. The articles on DHEA and lisuride are fascinating.
For some context and background, I've known I was attracted to other guys since I was 10 or 11 (developed a strong abnormal affinity/infatuation with a middle school boy on my swim team), though I didn't think too much of it and it didn't become really strong until around 16 or 17 when I developed a really strong crush on my (male) best friend.
The link between homosexuality – and more generally, male sensitivity or fragility – and maternal stress makes sense and tracks. My mom was constantly vomiting when she was pregnant with me (never knew why – she was perfectly emotionally and spiritually healthy the whole time, but physical nutrition was difficult for some reason). Not so with my older brother who is straight, but also somewhat sensitive. I used to get a lot of seizures and fevers when young.
The idea that homosexuality is linked to metabolic dysfunction tracks pretty well in my experience, as well. In my later adolescence and young adulthood, had several years of some type of 'eating disorder' that probably tracks somewhat with anorexia – something that appears in sensitive girls. I think the cause was partly psychological (being bullied) and partly hormonal. Around that time I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, though this is more genetic (through my patriline) than environmental – my paternal grandmother and several others in that lineage have also had thyroid issues.
What's interesting is that my patriline is almost exclusively men. My dad has two brothers, and both of them have exclusively sons (except for one daughter; I only have one patrilineal female first cousin). My dad's dad (paternal grandfather) is one of six (or seven?) children and five of them were boys. I don't know if any of them were gay. Paternal great-grandfather's generation is also almost exclusively boys, too.
Stuff around stereotypical interests has always been quite a mixed bag: I used to hang around with girls a lot in elementary school (interested in people more than things), but I also liked playing with boys because I deeply enjoy using my hands to build things, and they were always better at it. Even today, I do a lot of construction/mechanical work, and have significant aptitude in that area. Most of my friends now in adulthood are straight men. For instance, it's more fun and easier to do target practice with men; they match my spatial and mechanical aptitude and can teach me and learn from me better (also men look sexy as fuck shooting AR15s).
I've considered doing some type of androgen therapy, not because I feel a need to change my sexual orientation (I date exclusively men, and feel totally comfortable with it; no desire to date or have sex with girls; want to find a husband), but because I've heard cases where it fixed many metabolism and health issues. I tend to get injured pretty easily and recovery time takes longer. For example, when I go rock climbing, I can only do ~2 days in a row, and then have to spend a ~week recovering – especially my forearms/grip and shoulder/throwing power.
However, in terms of pain threshholds, I will say I do tend to have *a lot* more endurance/resilience than my male friends in terms of withstanding constant physical suffering over longer periods. This is what made me a good competitive swimmer. I think you've noted that this type of resilience is more characteristic of females; males handle more acute pain/injury in shorter bursts.
What makes me feel sad is that most people can't tell these things about me just by looking. I'm a 6'3" well-built male (at one point I was deadlifting close to 400 lbs. regularly, but I don't do weight lifting too often anymore), and I don't have effeminate mannerisms (never had a desire to be a girl, or trans, or even do drag), and I do contact sports often (kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, wrestling). I actually experience a significant amount of distress and anxiety when girls try to flirt with me – I'm not a player by any means, but it happens often enough strictly because of my physique + beard; it's a very uncomfortable experience.
Thank you for sharing this, Rajeev. I think increasing the metabolic rate is a good thing regardless of a specific goal, we can all benefit from burning a little warmer and with that cultivating more patience. Grip strength does correlate extremely well with metabolism, so much so that aging, rate of metabolism, and grip strength can all be used almost interchangeably. I hope you're able to resolve your worries, and my DMs are always open if any questions come up.
Thanks for sharing. I would be very curious to explore the anxiety/distress that you experience when girls flirt with you - that sounds like you learn a lot about what emotions/beliefs keep you from wanting to be with women. I speak from my own experience from formerly “being gay” that I no longer believe in the idea of being a gay man as that implies an innate/instrinsic property of the self which no one has been able to provide evidence for such a gene. We are all just men (designed to be attracted to and copulate with women) and that capacity is there for all of us. However some men develop erotic attraction to other men in the course of childhood development - I see this as a response of the autonomic nervous system (which controls sexual functioning) to stressors (such as maternal stress) and usually events that happen growing up that distress us. There is also almost always insufficient indentification with the members of one owns sex (you seem to have a good relationship with male peers but you don’t talk about your relationship to your father) so it could something for you to explore also. The theory that I’ve found that tracks is that the exotic becomes erotic - the gender that you experience as exotic becomes eroticised during puberty ( this is on the level of the unconscious). I know you said you’re comfortable dating men but just incase you’re curious to go on an adventure and not just accept the mainstream received wisdom on sexuality. Anyway if you’re interested in exploring further I would suggest looking at those factors + healing the nervous system. Btw the nervous system stuff may be manifesting in both the extreme endurance (you body could be shut down to pain signals) which may be related to the injuries also though I don’t fully understand what is happening there.
> no longer believe in the idea of being a gay man as that implies an innate/instrinsic property of the self
Yeah, I can respect this point of view. The concept of 'identity' and 'self' is already very dicey as-is, and that is before mixing erotic or sexual identifications into the mix (which may or may not even correspond with behavior)
> There is also almost always insufficient identification with the members of one owns sex
Mmmmm, yeah. My two childhood best friend were boys (up until middle school when they went to different schools and we lost touch), but they were similarly weird to me – both of them are straight, though. I was acquaintances with many girls, but never best friends.
At the same time, I thought that most boys were kind of boorish, misbehaving, and gross. Also kind of stupid, overall. Didn't like them.
It was only in my early-to-mid 20s that it became easier to identify as a man without condition: because I saw other men who were well-integrated and had dropped a lot of over-the-top/institutional socialization.
> (you seem to have a good relationship with male peers but you don’t talk about your relationship to your father)
As a child, I never had a necessarily 'good' or 'bad' relationship with my father. He was so busy working and providing, there wasn't too much intimacy, but I liked him and he generally felt safe and supportive.
There was a point of ~3 years during which I had a *very* strenuous relationship to both my parents (unrelated to sexuality; more related to career/ambition). Since then, we've worked through a lot of stuff – I've let go of a lot of resentment; dad has been sober from alcohol for close to a decade; have made amends with mom – and become a lot closer.
I just had a 4-hour conversation on the phone with my dad the other day. We talked about *everything* (family, entrepreneurship, love, religion, community, technology) Super uncharacteristic for both of us, but it was absolutely wonderful. Felt like an invisible wall broke down between us.
More on the self - I’m guessing based on your page/response you have some background in spirituality(ignore if not). What changed my mind is i went on this long spiritual search that culminated in a ten day silent retreat l. I had been asking myself who am I? Up and until that point I had made peace with myself as “gay” . But then I had this experience where I saw clearly that the gay identity was just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations or conditioning - that these arose in the bigger space or container that I am. I had already borne witness to aspects of what I had thought to be my “self” dissolving when I worked on healing trauma/ conditioning so I saw that wasn’t the truest or deepest part of myself.
After that experience I realised that I had always wanted to have a traditional family (I had just convinced myself I didn’t because I was gay and it felt impossible) so I decided to drop the gay label and simply call myself a man that is open to experience. So I began to be very mindful around what I experienced around women - the sensations the thoughts the feelings - as well as around men (particularly those I have erotic attraction to). Long story short I found that beneath the experience of the attraction to men was a longing to be affirmed in my masculinity/ to feel powerful/ to be taken care of(I had difficulty connecting with boys growing up I wasn’t into sports; I can also tend to be passive). And with women I slowly realised there is romantic attraction just that the sexual arousal has been so subtle I honestly couldn’t recognise it before( but also it may have grown as I’ve been working on the issues I mentioned and some nervous system healing like bioenergetics) it also feels very different that the attraction I had/have toward men which was almost like an anxious obssessive impulse.
Ah going to your other responses - IMO looks like there might still be some work towards healing that part of yourself that felt different as a boy - sounds like you made progress once you were older but in my experience those younger childhood parts of us persist.
And I’m so glad to hear about your deepening relationship with your father - I’d say lean in! I want to likewise build my relationship with my father (and honestly male cousins/ childhood male best friends). He is a good loving man just was never much around growing up as he was busy with work so I think I didn’t sufficiently bond with him. Mine also had a drinking problem and he’s just started a sobriety journey.
I would like to discuss more of this . I want to know if there are methods for curing this. Please send me documentaries or articles about the Origin of homosexuality and how to reverse this . My Instagram is @ superstar_obi . I am @Bulkboy23 on X known as twitter. Thank you so much.
Fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to do the research, as always. I have a question. If, hypothetically, one wanted to limit the chances of such adaptation in their own offspring, what would you say would be reliable metrics (temperature aside) to keep an eye on during pregnancy?
Thank you, Yago. I think a general sense of well being is a good metric to look for; sometimes it's easy to overlook this when we are in search of objective metrics. Attitude can change enzyme rates and cell water structures so when other "tangible" factors have been accounted for, generating a sense of hopefulness for the future can be good.
I would say also focus on building a strong relationship with your son(as a father) or vice versa with your daughter(as a woman) most crucially as infants. If the son strong identifies with the father (maleness) they can successfully detach from the mother(initial strongest bond) and later on develop healthy sexuality i.e. eroticise that which they are not. Happy to talk more on DM
The theory is that boys have an extra developmental task of psychically detaching from the mother & identifying with the father to cement male identity. If that process is incomplete for whatever reason e.g. strong overbearing mother, weak or absent or abusive father figure etc then there likely will be parts of the self that don’t fully own or inhabit one’s gender (male in this case) which could later present as many things ranging from more generally feelings of gender inferiority(not good enough/lack of some sort), gender nonconformity(could be more feminine expressions in speech/movement), same sex attraction(masculinity is not yet fully internalised/integrated and is experienced as out there), gender incongruence/dysphoria etc. I like to think of it as just one factor in a constellation of factors influencing development.
I believe Nicolosi was likely wrong about CGNC being the product of the shared enviroment or " parental bond trauma", rather CGNC is a genetic trait to which parents just react to (aka the relationship is not causal).
CGNC is in fact an heritable genetic trait (some studies put it up to 70% or 37% but it's likely around 50%) that is different from homosexuality (they don't share the same genes, so they are non-overlapping).
In the same gwas study I posted showed that there was a genetic overlap between CGNC and internalizing behaviours (like anxiety or depression). This means the recalled "distress", "inferiority" and "self steem issues" symptoms you mention are likely the product of genetic confounding and not
necessarily "trauma" or "shared enviroment". I interpret this as the parents not being to blame for the psychological outcomes but rather genetics.
We also know that CGNC is persistent and carries to adulthood "The difference emerged early, carried into adulthood, and was consistent with self-report"
In fact, a lot of the negative stereotypes wrongly attributed to homosexuals (like in mental health) are actually just the product of CGNC genetic confounding:
"Using childhood gender conforming heterosexual peers as reference, childhood gender conforming homosexual participants generally did not exhibit statistically significantly increased odds of mental health problems."
Another thing is the proven small effect of shared enviroment in the development of homosexuality:
In one of the largest twin heritability study, shared enviroment (which includes family enviroment) explained 0% of the variation in sexual orientation among men:
This puts nicolosi theory into doubt, because according to his theory the shared enviroment should have a much larger effect in the sexual orientation of twins, yet it does not.
Nice, I just thinking about boys growing up with narcissistic fathers and enabling neurotic mothers and how that induces homosexuality . I’m looking for documentaries or articles on probable cures. Any suggestions?
Its difficult to find a lot of material because it's essentially taboo to think that homosexuality is not "natural" and "irreversible". But Joseph Nicolosi is a good place to start, theres still some stuff of his out there, if you can find one of his books or lectures (I think Youtube took down some of them) but he had a website. I suggest looking at the videos on https://www.youtube.com/@PsychoBible and https://www.youtube.com/@StrongSupportUK
They have guest speakers who have also written books. One would almost certainly need to work with a good therapist, because these are very deep emotional/psychological issues so it takes time and support to work through. https://changedmovement.com/resources-all has a good list of counselors but also other resources. I'll message you also
Incredibly interesting research. Georgi Dinkov has written about this topic before, but it tends to get people's knickers in a twist. So, I commend your attention to it. I agree that it is evil to defile and distort the worthwhile facts and correlations with pre-natal stress and later behaviours.
As mentioned already, there are studies both confirming and denying this hypothesis; there are at least two other studies that replicate and confirm Dorner's findings.
Would you mind to post them please then? I can think of other more studies that failed to replicate Dorner findings:
"This study attempted to replicate a series of investigations by Gunter Dörner and his associates that concluded that more homosexual men are born in wartime than in times of peace. That conclusion is based on Dörner's belief that war induces stress in pregnant women and that stress causes a drop in fetal androgen levels which in turn leads to the development of a homosexual "orientation". The replication not only failed to support the Dörner conclusion but also found that even those cities that suffered the most severe bombing during World War II showed no evidence of increased numbers of homosexuals. The authors conclude that homosexual men can go on loving peace and getting involved in the peace movement."
(Donner research methodology is also questionable because of the unreliability of sons reports of their mothers mental state before they were born.)
It's also worth saying that all the hormonal studies in this article about the neuroendocrine responces/profile of homosexuals didn't replicate or were contradicted by following studies with better methodology:
"Contrary to some previous reports, we observed no significant differences between heterosexual and homosexual subjects in the likelihood of their exhibiting elevated LH concentrations following exogenous estrogens."
"Plasma prolactin values of 20 male homosexuals of Kinsey rating 6 were compared with plasma prolactin values of 15 male heterosexuals of Kinsey rating 0. There was no difference in mean plasma prolactin value between the two groups."
It seems there are many studies that find no hormonal differences between adult homosexuals and heterosexuals.
More examples:
"40 lesbian women were classified into primary and secondary groups according to the above criteria. These two groups, and another lesbian and a heterosexual group, were measured at the same point in the menstrual cycle for levels of testosterone, androstenedione, oestradiol and progesterone. They were also tested on instrumentality and expressivity, two traits measured by the Personal Attributes Questionnaire (PAQ), related to sex roles. No significant differences were found between the groups on any of the measures, apart from the defining criteria. This study has therefore failed to validate the distinction between primary and secondary lesbianism."
In gay men most studies actually seems to suggest that there are no hormonal differences between homosexual/straight men:
Meyer-Bahlburg (1982) reviewed 24 studies published between 1971 and 1981 about testosterone, where 18 studies showed no differences in testosterone level, and two showed elevated testosterone levels in the gay men. He also found that 15 studies about the gonadotropin levels failed to show any differences between gays and straight men. Additionally, Meyer-Bahlburg comments that attempts at finding hormonal differences in effeminate versus masculine homosexuals or between men taking on “active” and “passive” sexual roles have failed.
By the way, the "cross-sexual" behaviours that is often adjudged to gay/lesbians is called Childhood Gender Non-conformity (CGNC for short). CGNC has a genetic origin + is significantly heritable. It is also does not overlaps with the same genetic regions of homosexuality (which makes sense since even if they can both occur together, CGNC heterosexual kids still make the majority of all CGNC children):
"Quantitative genetic analyses showed that variation in both childhood gender atypical behavior and adult sexual orientation was partly due to genetics, with the rest being explained by nonshared environmental effects"
" As part of an ongoing longitudinal study of the Netherlands Twin Registry, mothers were asked to complete the CBCL for their twins when they were 7 (n∼14,000 twins) and 10 years old (n∼8,500 twins). Genetic structural equation modeling showed that 70% of the variance in the liability of cross-gender behavior could be explained by genetic factors, at both ages and for both sexes."
As ackerman noted by posting the study by michael bailey:
"For males, neither between-family nor within-family analyses revealed a maternal stress effect for either sexual orientation or childhood gender nonconformity. However, MOTHERS OF EFFEMINATE children reported more stress-proneness than other mothers."
In the GWAS I posted before, CGNC had a genetical overlap with internalizing behaviours irrespective of sexual orientation (which again, CGNC didn't overlap genetically with homosexuality).
This leads me to believe that maternal stress is actually related to the confounding variable of CGNC (and not to homosexuality per se) through a genetic relationship with internalizing behaviours that leads to stress proneness in mothers of both gay and straight CGNC children.
The difficulty with this kind of research into this hypothesis is that evidently not everyone with a history of maternal stress will develop homosexuality. I view it as a factor amongst a constellation of factors
I've always believed it's a womb- level developmental disorder due to the hormonal mix not quite going one way or the other. The causes of hormonal imbalance in modern life are myriad.
I strongly disagree. This study is absolutely ridiculous. Firstly, instead of a study from Nazi Germany, you should have chosen a more recent one due to the advancement of modern medicine, but you chose this to justify your opinion. Also, the studies you mentioned aren't even about homosexuality. Sexual orientation is not entirely genetic. It is a mix of genetic, environmental, and psychosocial factors. Even if it were entirely genetic, what we know for sure is that it's not something people can choose or cure. It never was. Honestly, I was going to stop reading when you used the increase in homosexuality in recent years as an argument, but I kept going, and of course, it was a disappointment. The reason for the increase in homosexuality in recent years is actually quite simple: people can now freely express themselves without fear of torture or imprisonment. Thats it. Just think.
Precisely what I thought: people can now freely express themselves without risk of imprisonment, torture or even (and still true in some countries) being put to death. The absurdity of linking it being more prevalent now than before to a new biological marker pretty much sums up the angle the author is motivated by.
Can you please learn that nested quotation marks go double-single in U.S. and Canadian English, and, at any event, no English dialect permits double quotes within double quotes?
Thanks this was interesting. As I’ve commented elsewhere I would put maternal stressors as one factor in a constellation of factors that contribute to the development of homosexuality. As a person who used to identify as “gay” I’d say based on my own experience and the research I’ve been doing that no one is “born gay” same sex attraction develops in the course of childhood development as a result of stressors and the manner in which the child responds to and makes meaning of those stressors. I like to view as the autonomic nervous system (which controls sexual function) goes haywire due to unresolved stress in the system. Like you said some people develop autoimmune diseases as a result of a dysregulated nervous system, various maladaptive conditions which we all agree are not ideal but somehow we accept homosexuality. I’ll look into DHEA from the story it seems it was linked with an increase in assertiveness and a greater identification with maleness- these are things I’m working on as I can see they are components of the same sex attraction I experience
the only real correlations im aware of is height and penis size. Having a large aesthetic penis may make you develop an attraction to penises, and having a small height might make you feel more feminine and womanly
This is a really interesting article and very well-researched. Thanks for posting, earned a follow from me. I checked out some of your Twitter posts, too, especially on thyroid stuff and it's all really good. The articles on DHEA and lisuride are fascinating.
For some context and background, I've known I was attracted to other guys since I was 10 or 11 (developed a strong abnormal affinity/infatuation with a middle school boy on my swim team), though I didn't think too much of it and it didn't become really strong until around 16 or 17 when I developed a really strong crush on my (male) best friend.
The link between homosexuality – and more generally, male sensitivity or fragility – and maternal stress makes sense and tracks. My mom was constantly vomiting when she was pregnant with me (never knew why – she was perfectly emotionally and spiritually healthy the whole time, but physical nutrition was difficult for some reason). Not so with my older brother who is straight, but also somewhat sensitive. I used to get a lot of seizures and fevers when young.
The idea that homosexuality is linked to metabolic dysfunction tracks pretty well in my experience, as well. In my later adolescence and young adulthood, had several years of some type of 'eating disorder' that probably tracks somewhat with anorexia – something that appears in sensitive girls. I think the cause was partly psychological (being bullied) and partly hormonal. Around that time I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, though this is more genetic (through my patriline) than environmental – my paternal grandmother and several others in that lineage have also had thyroid issues.
What's interesting is that my patriline is almost exclusively men. My dad has two brothers, and both of them have exclusively sons (except for one daughter; I only have one patrilineal female first cousin). My dad's dad (paternal grandfather) is one of six (or seven?) children and five of them were boys. I don't know if any of them were gay. Paternal great-grandfather's generation is also almost exclusively boys, too.
Stuff around stereotypical interests has always been quite a mixed bag: I used to hang around with girls a lot in elementary school (interested in people more than things), but I also liked playing with boys because I deeply enjoy using my hands to build things, and they were always better at it. Even today, I do a lot of construction/mechanical work, and have significant aptitude in that area. Most of my friends now in adulthood are straight men. For instance, it's more fun and easier to do target practice with men; they match my spatial and mechanical aptitude and can teach me and learn from me better (also men look sexy as fuck shooting AR15s).
I've considered doing some type of androgen therapy, not because I feel a need to change my sexual orientation (I date exclusively men, and feel totally comfortable with it; no desire to date or have sex with girls; want to find a husband), but because I've heard cases where it fixed many metabolism and health issues. I tend to get injured pretty easily and recovery time takes longer. For example, when I go rock climbing, I can only do ~2 days in a row, and then have to spend a ~week recovering – especially my forearms/grip and shoulder/throwing power.
However, in terms of pain threshholds, I will say I do tend to have *a lot* more endurance/resilience than my male friends in terms of withstanding constant physical suffering over longer periods. This is what made me a good competitive swimmer. I think you've noted that this type of resilience is more characteristic of females; males handle more acute pain/injury in shorter bursts.
What makes me feel sad is that most people can't tell these things about me just by looking. I'm a 6'3" well-built male (at one point I was deadlifting close to 400 lbs. regularly, but I don't do weight lifting too often anymore), and I don't have effeminate mannerisms (never had a desire to be a girl, or trans, or even do drag), and I do contact sports often (kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, wrestling). I actually experience a significant amount of distress and anxiety when girls try to flirt with me – I'm not a player by any means, but it happens often enough strictly because of my physique + beard; it's a very uncomfortable experience.
Thank you for sharing this, Rajeev. I think increasing the metabolic rate is a good thing regardless of a specific goal, we can all benefit from burning a little warmer and with that cultivating more patience. Grip strength does correlate extremely well with metabolism, so much so that aging, rate of metabolism, and grip strength can all be used almost interchangeably. I hope you're able to resolve your worries, and my DMs are always open if any questions come up.
Thanks for sharing. I would be very curious to explore the anxiety/distress that you experience when girls flirt with you - that sounds like you learn a lot about what emotions/beliefs keep you from wanting to be with women. I speak from my own experience from formerly “being gay” that I no longer believe in the idea of being a gay man as that implies an innate/instrinsic property of the self which no one has been able to provide evidence for such a gene. We are all just men (designed to be attracted to and copulate with women) and that capacity is there for all of us. However some men develop erotic attraction to other men in the course of childhood development - I see this as a response of the autonomic nervous system (which controls sexual functioning) to stressors (such as maternal stress) and usually events that happen growing up that distress us. There is also almost always insufficient indentification with the members of one owns sex (you seem to have a good relationship with male peers but you don’t talk about your relationship to your father) so it could something for you to explore also. The theory that I’ve found that tracks is that the exotic becomes erotic - the gender that you experience as exotic becomes eroticised during puberty ( this is on the level of the unconscious). I know you said you’re comfortable dating men but just incase you’re curious to go on an adventure and not just accept the mainstream received wisdom on sexuality. Anyway if you’re interested in exploring further I would suggest looking at those factors + healing the nervous system. Btw the nervous system stuff may be manifesting in both the extreme endurance (you body could be shut down to pain signals) which may be related to the injuries also though I don’t fully understand what is happening there.
You can DM if you want to chat further
> no longer believe in the idea of being a gay man as that implies an innate/instrinsic property of the self
Yeah, I can respect this point of view. The concept of 'identity' and 'self' is already very dicey as-is, and that is before mixing erotic or sexual identifications into the mix (which may or may not even correspond with behavior)
> There is also almost always insufficient identification with the members of one owns sex
Mmmmm, yeah. My two childhood best friend were boys (up until middle school when they went to different schools and we lost touch), but they were similarly weird to me – both of them are straight, though. I was acquaintances with many girls, but never best friends.
At the same time, I thought that most boys were kind of boorish, misbehaving, and gross. Also kind of stupid, overall. Didn't like them.
It was only in my early-to-mid 20s that it became easier to identify as a man without condition: because I saw other men who were well-integrated and had dropped a lot of over-the-top/institutional socialization.
> (you seem to have a good relationship with male peers but you don’t talk about your relationship to your father)
As a child, I never had a necessarily 'good' or 'bad' relationship with my father. He was so busy working and providing, there wasn't too much intimacy, but I liked him and he generally felt safe and supportive.
There was a point of ~3 years during which I had a *very* strenuous relationship to both my parents (unrelated to sexuality; more related to career/ambition). Since then, we've worked through a lot of stuff – I've let go of a lot of resentment; dad has been sober from alcohol for close to a decade; have made amends with mom – and become a lot closer.
I just had a 4-hour conversation on the phone with my dad the other day. We talked about *everything* (family, entrepreneurship, love, religion, community, technology) Super uncharacteristic for both of us, but it was absolutely wonderful. Felt like an invisible wall broke down between us.
More on the self - I’m guessing based on your page/response you have some background in spirituality(ignore if not). What changed my mind is i went on this long spiritual search that culminated in a ten day silent retreat l. I had been asking myself who am I? Up and until that point I had made peace with myself as “gay” . But then I had this experience where I saw clearly that the gay identity was just a bunch of thoughts/feelings/sensations or conditioning - that these arose in the bigger space or container that I am. I had already borne witness to aspects of what I had thought to be my “self” dissolving when I worked on healing trauma/ conditioning so I saw that wasn’t the truest or deepest part of myself.
After that experience I realised that I had always wanted to have a traditional family (I had just convinced myself I didn’t because I was gay and it felt impossible) so I decided to drop the gay label and simply call myself a man that is open to experience. So I began to be very mindful around what I experienced around women - the sensations the thoughts the feelings - as well as around men (particularly those I have erotic attraction to). Long story short I found that beneath the experience of the attraction to men was a longing to be affirmed in my masculinity/ to feel powerful/ to be taken care of(I had difficulty connecting with boys growing up I wasn’t into sports; I can also tend to be passive). And with women I slowly realised there is romantic attraction just that the sexual arousal has been so subtle I honestly couldn’t recognise it before( but also it may have grown as I’ve been working on the issues I mentioned and some nervous system healing like bioenergetics) it also feels very different that the attraction I had/have toward men which was almost like an anxious obssessive impulse.
Ah going to your other responses - IMO looks like there might still be some work towards healing that part of yourself that felt different as a boy - sounds like you made progress once you were older but in my experience those younger childhood parts of us persist.
And I’m so glad to hear about your deepening relationship with your father - I’d say lean in! I want to likewise build my relationship with my father (and honestly male cousins/ childhood male best friends). He is a good loving man just was never much around growing up as he was busy with work so I think I didn’t sufficiently bond with him. Mine also had a drinking problem and he’s just started a sobriety journey.
But that sounds huge!! Happy for you
I would like to discuss more of this . I want to know if there are methods for curing this. Please send me documentaries or articles about the Origin of homosexuality and how to reverse this . My Instagram is @ superstar_obi . I am @Bulkboy23 on X known as twitter. Thank you so much.
Fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to do the research, as always. I have a question. If, hypothetically, one wanted to limit the chances of such adaptation in their own offspring, what would you say would be reliable metrics (temperature aside) to keep an eye on during pregnancy?
Thank you, Yago. I think a general sense of well being is a good metric to look for; sometimes it's easy to overlook this when we are in search of objective metrics. Attitude can change enzyme rates and cell water structures so when other "tangible" factors have been accounted for, generating a sense of hopefulness for the future can be good.
I would say also focus on building a strong relationship with your son(as a father) or vice versa with your daughter(as a woman) most crucially as infants. If the son strong identifies with the father (maleness) they can successfully detach from the mother(initial strongest bond) and later on develop healthy sexuality i.e. eroticise that which they are not. Happy to talk more on DM
what If he identifies with the mother?
The theory is that boys have an extra developmental task of psychically detaching from the mother & identifying with the father to cement male identity. If that process is incomplete for whatever reason e.g. strong overbearing mother, weak or absent or abusive father figure etc then there likely will be parts of the self that don’t fully own or inhabit one’s gender (male in this case) which could later present as many things ranging from more generally feelings of gender inferiority(not good enough/lack of some sort), gender nonconformity(could be more feminine expressions in speech/movement), same sex attraction(masculinity is not yet fully internalised/integrated and is experienced as out there), gender incongruence/dysphoria etc. I like to think of it as just one factor in a constellation of factors influencing development.
I believe Nicolosi was likely wrong about CGNC being the product of the shared enviroment or " parental bond trauma", rather CGNC is a genetic trait to which parents just react to (aka the relationship is not causal).
CGNC is in fact an heritable genetic trait (some studies put it up to 70% or 37% but it's likely around 50%) that is different from homosexuality (they don't share the same genes, so they are non-overlapping).
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8604823/
In the same gwas study I posted showed that there was a genetic overlap between CGNC and internalizing behaviours (like anxiety or depression). This means the recalled "distress", "inferiority" and "self steem issues" symptoms you mention are likely the product of genetic confounding and not
necessarily "trauma" or "shared enviroment". I interpret this as the parents not being to blame for the psychological outcomes but rather genetics.
We also know that CGNC is persistent and carries to adulthood "The difference emerged early, carried into adulthood, and was consistent with self-report"
(https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18194004/)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272735824001211#:~:text=We%20found%20that%20higher%20levels,attempts%20(r%20%3D%200.14).
In fact, a lot of the negative stereotypes wrongly attributed to homosexuals (like in mental health) are actually just the product of CGNC genetic confounding:
"Using childhood gender conforming heterosexual peers as reference, childhood gender conforming homosexual participants generally did not exhibit statistically significantly increased odds of mental health problems."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wps.21096
Another thing is the proven small effect of shared enviroment in the development of homosexuality:
In one of the largest twin heritability study, shared enviroment (which includes family enviroment) explained 0% of the variation in sexual orientation among men:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5320571_Genetic_and_Environmental_Effects_on_Same-sex_Sexual_Behavior_A_Population_Study_of_Twins_in_Sweden
This puts nicolosi theory into doubt, because according to his theory the shared enviroment should have a much larger effect in the sexual orientation of twins, yet it does not.
Good day.
Nice, I just thinking about boys growing up with narcissistic fathers and enabling neurotic mothers and how that induces homosexuality . I’m looking for documentaries or articles on probable cures. Any suggestions?
Its difficult to find a lot of material because it's essentially taboo to think that homosexuality is not "natural" and "irreversible". But Joseph Nicolosi is a good place to start, theres still some stuff of his out there, if you can find one of his books or lectures (I think Youtube took down some of them) but he had a website. I suggest looking at the videos on https://www.youtube.com/@PsychoBible and https://www.youtube.com/@StrongSupportUK
They have guest speakers who have also written books. One would almost certainly need to work with a good therapist, because these are very deep emotional/psychological issues so it takes time and support to work through. https://changedmovement.com/resources-all has a good list of counselors but also other resources. I'll message you also
Thanks
Incredibly interesting research. Georgi Dinkov has written about this topic before, but it tends to get people's knickers in a twist. So, I commend your attention to it. I agree that it is evil to defile and distort the worthwhile facts and correlations with pre-natal stress and later behaviours.
Well done!
study with maternal stress theory did not replicate
https://sci-hub.st/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01541847
As mentioned already, there are studies both confirming and denying this hypothesis; there are at least two other studies that replicate and confirm Dorner's findings.
Would you mind to post them please then? I can think of other more studies that failed to replicate Dorner findings:
"This study attempted to replicate a series of investigations by Gunter Dörner and his associates that concluded that more homosexual men are born in wartime than in times of peace. That conclusion is based on Dörner's belief that war induces stress in pregnant women and that stress causes a drop in fetal androgen levels which in turn leads to the development of a homosexual "orientation". The replication not only failed to support the Dörner conclusion but also found that even those cities that suffered the most severe bombing during World War II showed no evidence of increased numbers of homosexuals. The authors conclude that homosexual men can go on loving peace and getting involved in the peace movement."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15638049_Does_Peace_Prevent_Homosexuality
(Donner research methodology is also questionable because of the unreliability of sons reports of their mothers mental state before they were born.)
It's also worth saying that all the hormonal studies in this article about the neuroendocrine responces/profile of homosexuals didn't replicate or were contradicted by following studies with better methodology:
"Contrary to some previous reports, we observed no significant differences between heterosexual and homosexual subjects in the likelihood of their exhibiting elevated LH concentrations following exogenous estrogens."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0306453089900152
"Plasma prolactin values of 20 male homosexuals of Kinsey rating 6 were compared with plasma prolactin values of 15 male heterosexuals of Kinsey rating 0. There was no difference in mean plasma prolactin value between the two groups."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0018506X77900460#!:~:text=Plasma%20prolactin%20values%20of%2020,males%20and%20plasma%20prolactin%20level.
It seems there are many studies that find no hormonal differences between adult homosexuals and heterosexuals.
More examples:
"40 lesbian women were classified into primary and secondary groups according to the above criteria. These two groups, and another lesbian and a heterosexual group, were measured at the same point in the menstrual cycle for levels of testosterone, androstenedione, oestradiol and progesterone. They were also tested on instrumentality and expressivity, two traits measured by the Personal Attributes Questionnaire (PAQ), related to sex roles. No significant differences were found between the groups on any of the measures, apart from the defining criteria. This study has therefore failed to validate the distinction between primary and secondary lesbianism."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2282371/
In gay men most studies actually seems to suggest that there are no hormonal differences between homosexual/straight men:
Meyer-Bahlburg (1982) reviewed 24 studies published between 1971 and 1981 about testosterone, where 18 studies showed no differences in testosterone level, and two showed elevated testosterone levels in the gay men. He also found that 15 studies about the gonadotropin levels failed to show any differences between gays and straight men. Additionally, Meyer-Bahlburg comments that attempts at finding hormonal differences in effeminate versus masculine homosexuals or between men taking on “active” and “passive” sexual roles have failed.
By the way, the "cross-sexual" behaviours that is often adjudged to gay/lesbians is called Childhood Gender Non-conformity (CGNC for short). CGNC has a genetic origin + is significantly heritable. It is also does not overlaps with the same genetic regions of homosexuality (which makes sense since even if they can both occur together, CGNC heterosexual kids still make the majority of all CGNC children):
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8604823/
"Quantitative genetic analyses showed that variation in both childhood gender atypical behavior and adult sexual orientation was partly due to genetics, with the rest being explained by nonshared environmental effects"
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-008-9457-3
" As part of an ongoing longitudinal study of the Netherlands Twin Registry, mothers were asked to complete the CBCL for their twins when they were 7 (n∼14,000 twins) and 10 years old (n∼8,500 twins). Genetic structural equation modeling showed that 70% of the variance in the liability of cross-gender behavior could be explained by genetic factors, at both ages and for both sexes."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-006-9072-0
As ackerman noted by posting the study by michael bailey:
"For males, neither between-family nor within-family analyses revealed a maternal stress effect for either sexual orientation or childhood gender nonconformity. However, MOTHERS OF EFFEMINATE children reported more stress-proneness than other mothers."
In the GWAS I posted before, CGNC had a genetical overlap with internalizing behaviours irrespective of sexual orientation (which again, CGNC didn't overlap genetically with homosexuality).
This leads me to believe that maternal stress is actually related to the confounding variable of CGNC (and not to homosexuality per se) through a genetic relationship with internalizing behaviours that leads to stress proneness in mothers of both gay and straight CGNC children.
The difficulty with this kind of research into this hypothesis is that evidently not everyone with a history of maternal stress will develop homosexuality. I view it as a factor amongst a constellation of factors
I've always believed it's a womb- level developmental disorder due to the hormonal mix not quite going one way or the other. The causes of hormonal imbalance in modern life are myriad.
I strongly disagree. This study is absolutely ridiculous. Firstly, instead of a study from Nazi Germany, you should have chosen a more recent one due to the advancement of modern medicine, but you chose this to justify your opinion. Also, the studies you mentioned aren't even about homosexuality. Sexual orientation is not entirely genetic. It is a mix of genetic, environmental, and psychosocial factors. Even if it were entirely genetic, what we know for sure is that it's not something people can choose or cure. It never was. Honestly, I was going to stop reading when you used the increase in homosexuality in recent years as an argument, but I kept going, and of course, it was a disappointment. The reason for the increase in homosexuality in recent years is actually quite simple: people can now freely express themselves without fear of torture or imprisonment. Thats it. Just think.
Precisely what I thought: people can now freely express themselves without risk of imprisonment, torture or even (and still true in some countries) being put to death. The absurdity of linking it being more prevalent now than before to a new biological marker pretty much sums up the angle the author is motivated by.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
How much did Dörner have to pay those guys to get an estrogen injection?
https://anthropogeny.com/AIDS%20and%20DHEA.htm
Can you please learn that nested quotation marks go double-single in U.S. and Canadian English, and, at any event, no English dialect permits double quotes within double quotes?
Thanks for sharing this, this explains quite a bit about why I'm the way I'm
Thanks this was interesting. As I’ve commented elsewhere I would put maternal stressors as one factor in a constellation of factors that contribute to the development of homosexuality. As a person who used to identify as “gay” I’d say based on my own experience and the research I’ve been doing that no one is “born gay” same sex attraction develops in the course of childhood development as a result of stressors and the manner in which the child responds to and makes meaning of those stressors. I like to view as the autonomic nervous system (which controls sexual function) goes haywire due to unresolved stress in the system. Like you said some people develop autoimmune diseases as a result of a dysregulated nervous system, various maladaptive conditions which we all agree are not ideal but somehow we accept homosexuality. I’ll look into DHEA from the story it seems it was linked with an increase in assertiveness and a greater identification with maleness- these are things I’m working on as I can see they are components of the same sex attraction I experience
the only real correlations im aware of is height and penis size. Having a large aesthetic penis may make you develop an attraction to penises, and having a small height might make you feel more feminine and womanly
I think they can help to nudge the metabolism in the right direction, you'd need to adjust a few more factors.